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John (not lennon)
Member
Posts: 1169
Registered: Sep 2007 |
 Posted August 9th, 2008 12:38 PM IP    
Thanks Lance, for the revived interest in this thread, i'm really enjoying just reading it at the mo' (I'm so bedazzled at the mo' from Watchmen I can't comment  )
...j (",)
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted August 9th, 2008 02:07 PM IP
And i forgot to say earlier Lance - WELCOME!
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Lance
Member
Posts: 51
Registered: Aug 2008 |
Posted August 10th, 2008 04:52 PM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
Yes, thanks for the input, Lance. Nice post. I wanted to address two of your points. Just a friendly differing of opinion....
BWPS is a roller coaster ride, isn't it? Too much for me. Brian recorded so many great tags for those SMiLE songs, but many of them get lost because of the connecting of the songs. I gotta come up for air. That is a big sticking point for me. It does the songs a disservice. It almost reduces them to medleys. I miss those fades on "Heroes And Villains", "Do You Dig Worms", "Cabin Essence", and "Surf's Up". Those fades were a big part of the SMiLE "atmosphere" for me.
As far as Brian needing help finishing it....You mentioned some names who had Brian's "ear", no doubt about it. But there's a big difference between advising and doing the actual work. Brian did the work in 1966-67. He was constantly in the studio creating, singing, producing, revising, and assembling. With BWPS, the roles were reversed. Brian appeared - to me anyway - to be simply an adviser, and how much of that he did I am very curious to know. But how much "work" did he do? I am aware that because BWPS is primarily re-recordings that the amount of work wasn't as necessary as 1966. We will never know, but I would like to know the percentage of actual work Brian did on BWPS compared to the actual work that was done by others. I know that doesn't bother most, but for some reason it does bother me.
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Well, it is a bit of a friendly disagreement then. I will say that I do think Cabin Essence and Surf's Up Wind Chimes work better with a fade than with the way they end, and I would have liked a bit more of the tinkly piano stuff that got cut from the end of Do You Like Worms/Roll, Plymouth rock. And the Mike Love lyrics to Good Vibrations are better. Like I said, it is flawed. But I love it.
Obviously the arrangements for probably 95 percent or more of the record are Brian's. How much he worked on the new recording is questionable, but no it doesn't bother me. I listened to the album this morning(I hadn't listened to it for about a month) and I still love it.
It's interesting that you think that way the album is made does a disservice to the songs, because I think that's one of the things I love about the album, that all the songs sort of crash into each other, and it doesn't do them a disservice. Besides, I have the originals for some of those on the Box Set, anyway.
But again, you are comparing something unfinished--the original Smile--to something that is finished, BWPS. I don't blame you if you heard the other stuff first, which you clearly did.
I hadn't done that when I got into it.
I had only heard Surf's Up, Good Vibrations, Heroes and Villains and maybe Vegetables. Snippets on youtube of other stuff. So for me, listening with different expectations, different baggage so to speak, listening to that album blew me away, because I wasn't expecting anything specific in any of the songs.
One thing I will say, and this is something you might be talking about: it is hard to just pick a song and listen to that one song. You really have to listen to the whole album as a piece(or at least one "movement" to really appreciate it, and not everybody has the time to put on headphones and sit still for 48 minutes.
It really is the best album I've heard since Aeroplane over the Sea I think.
Heaviness disguised as lightheartedness. Since 1971
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John (not lennon)
Member
Posts: 1169
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 10th, 2008 07:06 PM IP
Quote:
not everybody has the time to put on headphones and sit still for 48 minutes.
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Eh, that's how i listen to music mostly
...j (",)
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 11th, 2008 03:25 AM IP
Quote:
Lance wrote:
It really is the best album I've heard since Aeroplane over the Sea I think.
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Very interesting, in that Smile is a full-fledged classic among longtime fans, while Aeroplane is something of a cult favorite among newer fans (that I absolutely agree with as brilliant).
don't try so hard.
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 11th, 2008 03:56 AM IP
I had an odd BBs sort of experience today. There I was in the midst of a typical BBQ when all of a sudden I hear "River Song." Then ... the rest of POB! I ask what's going on and am pointed to the culprit, who tells me he has recently come across Smile and only just now found the POB reissue! I do my best to be positive (despite mediocre feelings re POB) and we discuss a lot of BBs and related topics for literally hours. This guy reminds me of where I was a decade back, only with the benefit of things like Smile. Very interesting regardless, especially hearing someone so new to the whole story. Makes a guy want to say "listen to it all; we'll talk later."
don't try so hard.
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buddhahat
Member
Posts: 393
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 11th, 2008 11:03 AM IP
All this talk of how involved Brian was in BWPS made me search through the Smiley.net archives to find a topic I started there a couple of years ago based on the same question: How much input did Brian have in BWPS. At the time I was feeling disillusioned as some fans were posting that they had reason to believe that Brian's involvement was minimal, and as a fan of BWPS I wanted to investigate this thought further. It's an interesting thread if you can be bothered to wade through the 24 pages of it
http://smileysmile.net/board/index....pic,2325.0.html
The 'highlights' for me are this anecdote from RobMac (I hope he doesn't mind me reproducing his post here):
My wife and I were fortunate enough to have spent some time with both Darian and Probyn Gregory in New Orleans after Bran's show at Jazzfest last year. (it was gumbo at the Gumbo Shop in the French Quarter, but I digress) I, of course was peppering Darian with questions about the SMiLE CD and he was happy to indulge me. Dee (who keeps pretty quiet around discussions like this) flat out asks Darian (I had been telling her about the comments over the last 2 and a half years about Brian's true involvement with the project) "what do say to those who say the CD is just Darian's fanmix?" He looked shocked as hell. Probyn then interjected, "Darian's track list might be more interesting than what we did play". Darian asks "what do you mean by 'Darian's fanmix?" I explain the rumours and the scutlebutt and the cynicism. He responds, "I was just doing what I was told. Every decision was Brian's". Darian, of course did the hard work or researching the material which he then presented to Brian, but it was ultimately Brian's decision. Nobody did it for him. It wasn't Melinda approving of the final sequencing, it was Brian.
I guess my point in replecating the anecdote here was that for every quote from a Brian insider claiming Brian had little to do with the concert/album there is a counter quote and vice versa. You can argue that it's in Darian's best interests to defend the project I guess and everything he said at the time was merely a smokescreen to protect Brian, but personally I'd rather take Darian's assertations that Brian and VDP did the lion's share at face value.
And this contentious post from Peter Reum:
I think this rehashing is interestng f the latecomers. Yes, Brian did tell me in 1981 that Smile was meant to be 3 movements. Two were sequenced in 1966. The Elements was not fully conceptualized or done, and Brian did not finish it. I think that what happened is that the Boys voted Brian down on the movements concept, and Carl submitted an album list on December 10, 1966 to Capitol based on the BBs vote.
I think that there were some serious fights after the concept of movements got voted down, and I think Brian began a slow but steady decline into amphetamine dependence and eventual psychosis afterward. I think he never recovered from the shock of losing control of his group, and that is why, in my opinion, he never finished another album for The Beach Boys alone after that. He did work on songs, but really did not finish most of them either.
Smile as released is the original concept, and the 12 track album in December 1966 was but a shadow of Brian's vision.
The same thing happened to John Fogerty with CCR on Mardi Gras (?), and he never cut anything with CCR after that either.
Of course I am biased and have picked out posts that are more supportive of the "Brian was significantly involved" viewpoint. There are very good counter arguments throughout the topic and the usual culprits (Sheriff John Stone, Luther) are also involved. Ultimately it sort of fizzles out without either side of the argument really convincing the other, as is the way with all BW debates that heat up on these boards!
I must also point out (before it's thrown back in my face) that I do at first state that I don't think they finished Smile with BWPS, but the arguments against this are so convincing that I begin to change my position as the thread continues. So when I say now that I believe BWPS is the finished Smile I do mean it
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted August 11th, 2008 02:13 PM IP
Good research!
That's interesting and does make sense. I suppose there will always be those who might then say that Darian can't tell the truth of what happened but that appears to be an honest answer to me.
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 11th, 2008 10:12 PM IP
Was I an asshole throughout that thread? I assume I was.
don't try so hard.
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 12:00 AM IP
There are layers of truth, too. That's why in a court of law you must swear to tell not just the truth, but the WHOLE truth. AND nothing but the truth. I believe that Darian was telling Rob and Dee the truth as he saw it, and quite possibly the part of the truth that he felt comfortable telling. But maybe he wasn't telling them the whole truth, for which he could certainly be forgiven, considering his position.
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buddhahat
Member
Posts: 393
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 08:08 AM IP
Quote:
Susan wrote:
There are layers of truth, too. That's why in a court of law you must swear to tell not just the truth, but the WHOLE truth. AND nothing but the truth. I believe that Darian was telling Rob and Dee the truth as he saw it, and quite possibly the part of the truth that he felt comfortable telling. But maybe he wasn't telling them the whole truth, for which he could certainly be forgiven, considering his position.
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Well I guess that's why even quotes from the principal participants are unreliable, but I do think their relevant in helping us form an opinion. What's your opinion on who was and wasn't involved in the creation of BWPS, Susan?
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buddhahat
Member
Posts: 393
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 08:16 AM IP
Quote:
luther wrote:
Was I an asshole throughout that thread? I assume I was.
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I don't think you especially stood out as being an asshole. Maybe I'm so used to it I didn't notice (just kidding!!!)
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kenny
Member
Posts: 362
Registered: Mar 2008 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 11:55 AM IP
Quote:
Susan wrote:
There are layers of truth, too. That's why in a court of law you must swear to tell not just the truth, but the WHOLE truth. AND nothing but the truth. I believe that Darian was telling Rob and Dee the truth as he saw it, and quite possibly the part of the truth that he felt comfortable telling. But maybe he wasn't telling them the whole truth, for which he could certainly be forgiven, considering his position.
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What layers are involved in quantifying how much involvment their was from participants in a piece of work. I can see what you are saying on the nature of truth in general but can't see how it fits in this case.
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 12:26 PM IP
Okay, as an example: Say Darian comes in with a proposed line-up. Brian looks at it and grunts. Van Dyke says, "Oh yes, that's very similar to what we were talking about way back when." So Darian says, "Brian set the line-up." Nothing that's a direct lie, but it's also not exactly true. And i'm not saying that's what happened - just giving an example of how it might have happened.
As for my opinion as to who was involved and who wasn't, i don't have much of one. Clearly Darian was very involved, as was Van Dyke. I couldn't begin to guess the level of Brian's involvement...but it was probably somewhat less than is generally accepted. I say that because i think it was a really painful place for him to go back to, and he didn't want to...and we all know how Brian reacts when he doesn't want to do something. He had to be forced to finish the piece - many have said this - so why do people think he was involved much beyond being in the room? Film is one of the most easily manipulated mediums there is, so please don't throw the BWPS documentary at me. Very easy to say, "Okay, Brian - conduct the band!"
I am not a Smile trainspotter. It doesn't really interest me, and it doesn't really matter to me, either. And i'm sure that admission will lose me lots of street cred around here, but i don't care. I prefer product to process. I don't listen to snippets, i never cared about putting together my own Smile...i like finished pieces, or at least demos, not bits and pieces. Sorry.
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kenny
Member
Posts: 362
Registered: Mar 2008 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 01:22 PM IP
I can't even begin to guess how much involvement there was from Brian, and wouldn't even attempt to.
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John (not lennon)
Member
Posts: 1169
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 04:34 PM IP
Quote:
Susan wrote:
I am not a Smile trainspotter. It doesn't really interest me, and it doesn't really matter to me, either. And i'm sure that admission will lose me lots of street cred around here, but i don't care. I prefer product to process. I don't listen to snippets, i never cared about putting together my own Smile...i like finished pieces, or at least demos, not bits and pieces. Sorry.
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Nothing to apologies for Susan, each to their own, no points or street cred lost in my eyes and i can't see anyone else seeing you in a lesser light for it either
...j (",)
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 08:25 PM IP
Dear Susan, you have no street cred with me anymore. Love, lh.
don't try so hard.
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John (not lennon)
Member
Posts: 1169
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 12th, 2008 08:29 PM IP
Quote:
John (not lennon) wrote:
...and i can't see anyone else seeing you in a lesser light for it either
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of course except for Luther 
...j (",)
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 01:48 AM IP
Thanks, John.
Dear lh,
I am pleased to know that for a time, at least, i had street cred with you. I hope you'll cherish the memory of what once was, as i will, rather than pine for what can never be again.
Love,
Susan
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 01:53 AM IP
lol.
don't try so hard.
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 01:58 AM IP
Just paying you back for the most hearty laugh you gave me.
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buddhahat
Member
Posts: 393
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 09:50 AM IP
Quote:
Susan wrote:
I am not a Smile trainspotter. It doesn't really interest me, and it doesn't really matter to me, either. And i'm sure that admission will lose me lots of street cred around here, but i don't care. I prefer product to process. I don't listen to snippets, i never cared about putting together my own Smile...i like finished pieces, or at least demos, not bits and pieces. Sorry.
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It's ironic that on boards such as this not being a trainspotter actually diminishes your street-cred!! I say keep away from the Smile boots, Susan, and keep your cred intact!
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 12:54 PM IP
Well thanks, hatdude. Maybe that's why i tend to converse here rather than at places that almost have a trainspotting requirement.
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 01:57 PM IP
I see the Blueboard is going through one of its regular virulent periods where anyone daring to post a less than glowing review of TLOS gets dumped on - even though of course almost no-one has actually heard the record in question! Tiresome.
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 06:08 PM IP
They're also having their semi-annual political fight, because Mike's band is playing at the Rep Nat Convention. BECAUSE THEY WERE HIRED TO, not because that's their politics! So stupid...
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kenshane
Member
Posts: 1106
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 06:46 PM IP
I don't think that the fact that they were hired makes it alright if that is not their politics. If they are Republicans, that's fine, but there is a such thing as saying no to gigs. I'm sure lots of artists would have said no to that one.
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 07:39 PM IP
I saw that. Well, they have a choice and i'm sure they are happy to play that gig.
I'm also 100% sure that politically Mike and Bruce will agree with everyone else in the hall. Doesn't bother me either way as I never thought they were anything else. If i stopped liking people because of their politics then there would probably be a lot of albums i wouldn't get and films I wouldn't see where politics doesn't even come into it. Even when Neil was making strange comments about supporting Reagan i didn't stop liking him, or when Bob went Christian (though I didn't buy the albums!).
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Susan
Member
Posts: 1985
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 07:40 PM IP
I'm sure a lot would have. But the BBs have a history of playing Republican gigs...and i'm sure they're not all Republicans. It's a high profile gig, and i'm sure it is going to pay very well. I'd take it.
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted August 13th, 2008 08:05 PM IP
Personally i wouldn't do a gig for the other Party whatever they paid. Mind you i don't even much like the one i do vote for these days!
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Noble Surfer
Member
Posts: 43
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted August 18th, 2008 04:58 PM IP
Wow, someone quoted an old post of mine!
I still stand by what I said then. I do not believe that Darian was being misleading. Brian didn't do the grunt work in '03, but his main contribution to BWPS was his original music and arangements and that should stand as the greatest contribution.
In the end, why should it even matter? I listened to the vinyl version of BWPS the other day and still found it to be an amazing, beautifully produced record regradless of its motivation and how it was made. At this point, I don't care if it's actually Brian or a Darian album credited to Brian - the record still moves me like it did the first time I heard the finished product. That's what counts and what really should count.
Even if he had nothing to do with it, it was the version that he ultimately agreed to give his name to. And the version that Van Dyke approved of. As far as I'm concerned, that IS the final word on SMiLE. I'm sorry if that isn't enough for some, but I don't think we should ask these two men to revisit that period after they already revisited that period because we don't like aspects of what we got. If Brian can be held responsible for flops like GIOMH and the Xmas album, then he conversely should be held responsible for BWPS
"He's the Number One man!"
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