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alan
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Registered: Aug 2007 |
 Posted May 26th, 2009 01:03 PM IP    
I like those records a lot - but its clear that he wouldn't have known a Depeche Mode song if it hadn't been brought to him, and thinking about it there are certainly songs on there that possibly are Johnny going through the motions with some new crap that Rubin told him to sing, but i do think he lends much of it some dignity.
If nothing else his version of Hurt is one of the greatest recordings of its decade.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Posted May 30th, 2009 03:38 PM IP
Quote:
alan wrote:
If nothing else his version of Hurt is one of the greatest recordings of its decade.
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Yes, it is.
This topic (on a Dylan thread!) has prompted me to give another listen to the American Recordings. Yeah, Rubin brought the outside material to Johnny; I think that was even documented in some of the articles around that time. But, unlike the Brian Wilson solo debacle(s), I think Johnny had right of refusal. Didn't he? If he didn't, he did a good job interpreting the songs. And, hasn't Dylan done something similar with his last two albums, that is, revisiting older material, albeit old blues standards, with a drastically altered (damaged?) voice? Some would even claim he (Dylan) is stealing.
I also looked at some of the artists that Johnny covered on American Recordings - Kristofferson, Cohen, U2, Strummer, Neil Diamond, Tom Petty, Neil Young, Chuck Berry, Paul Simon, Jimmy Webb, and Cat Stevens! That ain't chopped liver. I never really viewed Johnny/Rick as trying to "sell" the stuff to a younger audience as much as trying to give a still hip guy (Johnny, even in his late 60's) some good material to sink his teeth into. Although I do see the commercial motivation behind it, I didn't/don't hold it against the projects. I thought it was necessary to get the music heard.
The one release that I always had some problems with was that last American Recordings album, where Johnny sounds, well, like he was near death. I think there is a line that you shouldn't cross, and I think they crossed that line. Maybe Johnny needed music to literally keep him alive, but it didn't have to be for public consumption.
You guys know I love Dylan, and I hope he records until he's 100 years old. But I hope he remembers his comments about Cash's later recordings, because he might be getting dangerously close to them. I hear a lot of that in Modern Times....
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luther
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Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 03:40 PM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
Some would even claim he (Dylan) is stealing.
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More than some would: I'd say plenty do.
don't try so hard.
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 04:33 PM IP
Quote:
luther wrote:
More than some would: I'd say plenty do.
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As he was on Freewheelin'. As did every folk or blues singer who ever claimed full compositional credit.
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 04:48 PM IP
I've defended his use of other material throughout: I'm not the one pointing fingers or incriminating him. I don't think it's a problem at all. Just noting that it isn't a "somebody could" situation, but a "people do" situation.
don't try so hard.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 05:52 PM IP
I brought up "the point", but I wasn't incriminating Dylan. Like Ray Manzarek said in the recent "The Doors" documentary, "We'd steal from anybody".
I was pointing out that, if one of Dylan's criticisms of Johnny Cash's later material was his going with older, non-Cash-composed, commercially viabale, non Sun Records-derivitive, not newly composed material (how's that for a phrase!), well, I don't share the same criticism; again, mainly because of the QUALITY of the artists/material he covered - and the style in which he recorded them (I like it!). Now, if Johnny would've recorded those songs in his familiar boom-chicka-boom style, going for another "I Walk The Line", well, then I could see the questioning.
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 06:29 PM IP
Thing is though on songs like Love Sick or Mississipi you never thought 'this is just a retread of a particular old blues song', whereas with most of the last two that's exactly what they seem to be.
But hey, he's 68, maybe just finding a few words is hard enough these days without having to think of a new tune too.
And he didn't even write all the word this time either!
(Edited by alan)
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 07:12 PM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote: if one of Dylan's criticisms of Johnny Cash's later material was his going with older, non-Cash-composed, commercially viabale, non Sun Records-derivitive, not newly composed material (how's that for a phrase!), |
No, that was my criticism, not his.
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Sheriff John Stone
Member
Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 08:22 PM IP
I mentioned Modern Times as a possible comparision to some of the American Recordings stuff, completely forgetting about Good As I Been To You and World Gone Wrong. Now, there was no commercialism in those recordings, and, I guess you could say Dylan was still at the top of his game. But, could those two albums be compared to what Cash was trying to do with Rubin, meaning going back to roots, covers, stripped production?
I'm not trying to make a big deal out of Dylan's quote(s), just trying to figure him out. I looked favorably on that period of Cash's life/career, and I thought it was an admirable way for an artist who couldn't go out on the road anymore to be productive and vital again. I'm just trying to make some sense out of Dylan. I'm confused, but I'll get over it... 
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted May 30th, 2009 08:30 PM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote: But, could those two albums be compared to what Cash was trying to do with Rubin, meaning going back to roots, covers, stripped production? |
Sonically. Hard to imagine Bob doing Glenn Danzig songs, though.
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alan
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Posted May 31st, 2009 02:21 AM IP
I just think Bob thought that Cash doing all those new songs by new people wasn't a good idea. I can see a point of view where Depeche Mode and Johnny Cash don't mix, but he was artistically bankrupt long before that (from what i've read - i don't have a Cash record between the two prison albums in the late 60's and American 1).
Personally i like them most of the time. I don't think everyone else should start neccessarily doing exactly the same thing though.
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Ian Cubed
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Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted May 31st, 2009 04:54 PM IP
Quote:
alan wrote:
I just think Bob thought that Cash doing all those new songs by new people wasn't a good idea. |
I don't think Bob was talking about that, he was referring to Johnny's physical weakness, and aristc weakness comparative to his early things.
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Lester Byrd
Member
Posts: 495
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 1st, 2009 09:40 PM IP
Quote:
alan wrote:
but he was artistically bankrupt long before that (from what i've read - i don't have a Cash record between the two prison albums in the late 60's and American 1).
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You need Johnny 99. Terrific album from 1983, includes covers of "Johnny 99" and "Highway Patrolman" from Nebraska. I love Bruce's versions, but those are songs that Johnny Cash was born to sing.
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Ian Cubed wrote:
I don't think Bob was talking about that, he was referring to Johnny's physical weakness, and aristc weakness comparative to his early things.
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Physical, yes. Artistic? No way in hell. That last album is one of the most powerful pieces of music I've ever heard. And Johnny's blasted voice makes it that much more effective. On "If You Could Read My Mind" his voice is just about gone, and it makes the lyrics ring incredibly true:
Quote:
The hero would be me
But heroes often fail
And you won't read that book again
Because the ending's just to hard to take. |
Just absolutely stunning.
Zombies shouldn't run!
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted June 1st, 2009 10:54 PM IP
Quote:
Lester Byrd wrote: Physical, yes. Artistic? No way in hell. That last album is one of the most powerful pieces of music I've ever heard. And Johnny's blasted voice makes it that much more effective. On "If You Could Read My Mind" his voice is just about gone, and it makes the lyrics ring incredibly true:
Just absolutely stunning.
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But that's what I mean, it is worth something BECAUSE of his physical decline, and that is what is so morally bankrupt about it. Would a version of him singing that song when he was in good health be as riveting? It's a documentary of dissolution, like the last Elvis live shows.
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luther
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Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 1st, 2009 11:50 PM IP
Victim art. In the mid-90s Arlene Croce wrote a "review" of choreographer Bill T. Jones "Still/Here" for the New Yorker. Croce actually did not see the work, refusing to put herself as reviewer in that situation because the "dancers" weren't necessarily trained dancers, but people dying of or living with AIDS. The idea was that she was being forced to feel a certain way. She called it victim art.
I can understand people feeling the same about the Cash recordings. Sometimes I feel that way about Brian Wilson's life performances over the past few decades.
don't try so hard.
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 01:19 AM IP
If I may add the least profound post of this thread:
I listened to Love & Theft a couple of times today. It had been a while. And despite having heard it hundreds of times already, it struck me: what a great album. It's right up there for my favorite albums of the decade, and one of his best. Just spectacular.
Also, the sky is blue and the earth is round.
don't try so hard.
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Sheriff John Stone
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Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 01:25 AM IP
Dylan's comments caught a lot of people off guard. And, if Bob really stands behind them (he's not the type to take things back, is he?), well, he better get used to the "declining" artists trying to still be effective. I don't have to list the number of aging rockers on the scene right now - we all know and love 'em - and I can envision most, if not all of them, recording/performing until they're physically not able to, some until the day they die.
As I mentioned in an above post, I felt Rubin and Cash went over the line with the last American Recordings album; Johnny was just, well, too far gone (in my opinion, of course). But, being the sentimental sap that I am, I still appreciate those old soldiers out there trying to still do it, as long as their heart and soul is into it, and as long as they don't, you know, embarrass themselves.
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luther
Member
Posts: 5203
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 01:30 AM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
as long as they don't, you know, embarrass themselves.
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As I look back at my life
As I move on through the years
Every time I reminisce
One thing rings out loud and clear
I'm so grateful a friend like you
You're the one who helps me make it through
All my dreams and all my hopes to satisfy.
A friend like you
A friend like you
And so forth!
don't try so hard.
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Sheriff John Stone
Member
Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 01:36 AM IP
Quote:
luther wrote:
As I look back at my life
As I move on through the years
Every time I reminisce
One thing rings out loud and clear
I'm so grateful a friend like you
You're the one who helps me make it through
All my dreams and all my hopes to satisfy.
A friend like you
A friend like you
And so forth!
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I was intentionally trying NOT to be specific.
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 03:10 AM IP
There is always that problem with Brian - how much leeway do you give him for what he's been through, and it is tricky.
With Johnny Cash hearing something like Hurt works on any level, but doubly so in context. Some things on those albums are great, some are naff, but i don't doubt his integrity for doing them.
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 02:31 PM IP
Well, I think there really isn't too much room for comparison with other people in Johnny's case. I mean, he had Parkinson's, a degenerative disease that made him sound shakier with each successive album. Which is different than just age or wear, which is what Dylan and all the rest are going through.
There is no question that Johnny's integrity remained intact, that's what makes the last albums so riveting. The only thing I was questioning was Rick Rubin's integrity.
"With Johnny Cash hearing something like Hurt works on any level, but doubly so in context."
But should that extramusical context be an intrinsic part of the appeal of the music?
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Sheriff John Stone
Member
Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 06:05 PM IP
Quote:
Ian Cubed wrote:
But should that extramusical context be an intrinsic part of the appeal of the music?
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I think yes, but it can work both ways.
In Johnny Cash's case, "Hurt" is more effective because of Johnny's "condition", whereas, and I'm sorry to keep repeating myself, his final recordings don't do him justice, and they might've been trying to capitalize on his circumstances.
Frank Sinatra is another example. On the She Shot Me Down album, "Long Night" and "She Shot Me Down" are brilliant, due in large part to Frank experiencing those things, and his fading voice relects the pain, maybe moreso than "The Voice" of the 1950's. Then, they exploit Frank's popularity by releasing that 80th Birthday Concert CD, which is a travesty and an embarrassment.
It can be a fine line with declining artists, but a line that can be walked, and walked effectively.
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Lester Byrd
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Posts: 495
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 06:36 PM IP
Quote:
Ian Cubed wrote:
But should that extramusical context be an intrinsic part of the appeal of the music?
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This is the crux of the matter, and I would say "no." The music has to work even if the listener knows nothing about the artist or the circumstances of the recording. The experience of just about any record can be deepened to some extent by the extramusical context. But art needs to work on its own.
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
Frank Sinatra is another example. On the She Shot Me Down album, "Long Night" and "She Shot Me Down" are brilliant, due in large part to Frank experiencing those things, and his fading voice relects the pain, maybe moreso than "The Voice" of the 1950's. Then, they exploit Frank's popularity by releasing that 80th Birthday Concert CD, which is a travesty and an embarrassment.
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Sinatra was the other example I was thinking of as well. A great artist can use whatever tools are in the toolbox to make great art, even if the tools are not in the best of shape. A limited palette sometimes even makes for better art.
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Sheriff John Stone wrote:
It can be a fine line with declining artists, but a line that can be walked, and walked effectively.
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Especially in the US, we worship youth and vigor and tend to be uncomfortable with age, sickness, decline, death. Except for the pseudo-romantic "Live fast, die young, and leave a good-looking corpse" death that leaves the dead preserved like a fly in amber in a perfect state of eternal youth.
But age, sickness, decline and death are worthy subjects of art. The last Cash recordings work for me because there aren't someone trying to be what he once was and failing. They are one of our very greatest American artists saying, "I'm old, I'm sick, and I'm dying. Here's my testimony about that." And that, to me, is invaluable.
Zombies shouldn't run!
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alan
Administrator
Posts: 7455
Registered: Aug 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 07:09 PM IP
Quote:
Lester Byrd wrote:
But age, sickness, decline and death are worthy subjects of art. The last Cash recordings work for me because there aren't someone trying to be what he once was and failing. They are one of our very greatest American artists saying, "I'm old, I'm sick, and I'm dying. Here's my testimony about that." And that, to me, is invaluable.
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I agree totally with that. Warren Zevon's last album was similar in that respect.
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 07:09 PM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
I think yes, but it can work both ways.
In Johnny Cash's case, "Hurt" is more effective because of Johnny's "condition", whereas, and I'm sorry to keep repeating myself, his final recordings don't do him justice, and they might've been trying to capitalize on his circumstances.
Frank Sinatra is another example. On the She Shot Me Down album, "Long Night" and "She Shot Me Down" are brilliant, due in large part to Frank experiencing those things, and his fading voice relects the pain, maybe moreso than "The Voice" of the 1950's. Then, they exploit Frank's popularity by releasing that 80th Birthday Concert CD, which is a travesty and an embarrassment.
It can be a fine line with declining artists, but a line that can be walked, and walked effectively.
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Good post. You got me on the Sinatra thing. Great point, and some of my favourite performances of his.
Nice debate, fellows.
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Lester Byrd
Member
Posts: 495
Registered: Sep 2007 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 07:42 PM IP
Quote:
alan wrote:
I agree totally with that. Warren Zevon's last album was similar in that respect.
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On the other hand, George Harrison knew he was dying when he recorded Brainwashed, but content of the album doesn't seem to reflect that at all. Interesting.
Zombies shouldn't run!
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alan
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Posted June 2nd, 2009 08:18 PM IP
Oh, there's no doubt that most artists of the rock era have declined as they have got older. We are so grateful that Mr Wilson is still with us that (almost) anything is gratefully recieved (and then slagged to hell - that Xmas album should have stayed with all the other unreleased 'classics' in his vault).
But thankfully there are exceptions. And sometimes its just an occasional peak out of the trough but that's OK. And there are others (hi Mr Townshend) that have done bugger all for the last 20 years anyway in terms of new material. At least Neil keeps banging them out, even if not all of them are exactly top draw.
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted June 2nd, 2009 10:48 PM IP
Quote:
Lester Byrd wrote:
On the other hand, George Harrison knew he was dying when he recorded Brainwashed, but content of the album doesn't seem to reflect that at all. Interesting.
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I dunno, this seems a pretty conscious and powerful final statement to me:
Quote:
Brainwashed in our childhood
Brainwashed by the school
Brainwashed by our teachers
and brainwashed by their rules
Brainwashed by our leaders
By our Kings and Queens
Brainwashed in the open and brainwashed
behind the scenes
God God God
A voice cried in the wilderness
God God God
it was on the longest night
God God God
An eternity of darkness
God God God
Someone turned out the spiritual light
Brainwashed by the Nikkei
Brainwashed by Dow Jones
Brainwashed by the FTSE
Nasdaq and secure loans
Brainwashed us from Brussels
Brainwashing us in Bonn
Brainwashing us in Washington
Westminster in London
God God God
You are the wisdom that we seek
God God God
The lover that we miss
God God God
Your nature is eternity
God God God
You are Existence, Knowledge, Bliss
The soul does not love, it is love itself
It does not exist, It is existence itself
It does not know, It is knowledge itself
"How to Know God" Page 130
They brainwashed my great uncle
Brainwashed my cousin Bob
They even got my grandma when she was
working for the mob
Brainwash you while you're sleeping
While you're in a traffic jam
Brainwash you while you're weeping
While still a baby in your pram
Brainwashed by the Military
Brainwashed under duress
Brainwashed by the media
You're brainwashed by the press
Brainwashed by computer
Brainwashed by mobile phones
Brainwashed by the satellite
Brainwashed to the bone
God God God
Won't you lead us through this mess
God God God
From the places of concrete
God God God
Nothing's worse than ignorance
God God God
I just won't accept defeat
God God God
Must be something I forgot
God God God
Down on Bullshit Avenue
God God God
If we can only stop the rot
God God God
Wish that you'd brainwash us too
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Sheriff John Stone
Member
Posts: 905
Registered: Jun 2008 |
Posted June 3rd, 2009 12:03 AM IP
Quote:
alan wrote:
Oh, there's no doubt that most artists of the rock era have declined as they have got older. We are so grateful that Mr Wilson is still with us that (almost) anything is gratefully recieved (and then slagged to hell - that Xmas album should have stayed with all the other unreleased 'classics' in his vault).
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I was trying to avoid discussing Brian, but what the heck. Just one quick point....
Personally (and I know I'm in the minority), one of the reasons I don't enjoy Brian's solo work - and there are many reasons - is because I perceive him as "not all there", and not really capable of writing, singing, or FEELING some of the stuff he is releasing. I know that sounds harsh, but there is an element of the post-Landy Brian that makes me very uncomfortable to watch, listen to, and enjoy.
Whether he has been exploited is for another thread, but I see little of the "old" Brian we all know and love.
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Ian Cubed
Member
Posts: 1670
Registered: May 2008 |
Posted June 3rd, 2009 01:24 AM IP
Quote:
Sheriff John Stone wrote:
I was trying to avoid discussing Brian, but what the heck. Just one quick point....
Personally (and I know I'm in the minority), one of the reasons I don't enjoy Brian's solo work - and there are many reasons - is because I perceive him as "not all there", and not really capable of writing, singing, or FEELING some of the stuff he is releasing. I know that sounds harsh, but there is an element of the post-Landy Brian that makes me very uncomfortable to watch, listen to, and enjoy.
Whether he has been exploited is for another thread, but I see little of the "old" Brian we all know and love.
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Agreed entirely.
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