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Dupes Super Moderator  Posts: 368 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 28th, 2009 01:48 PM IP  I received an email from Kim Crumb. Email me if you need Kims contact information.
Gary: You sound like a major tech guy to me! So? I'm e-mailing the article I wanted to share with you. See attachment. Later Dodge had a special show with the winning LeMans car, an ALMS car, and Don's GTS, etc.
Yes, 11 years ago, with a '97 Viper GTS, we set this all-time "street car/street tire" lap record at Brainerd International. That 1:46.67 record has lasted all this time!
But? Cars have been inching up on it over this decade, of course. With the release of cars like the ZR-1, and people starting to juice-up things like the GTR, etc...well, it's only a matter of time?
I had it in mind to go back, and re-set (move it down more) that BIR lap record and uphold the honor for the Viper. Given that Don's GTS really did have stock brake and suspension, etc...well a current ACR would have to faster!?!
I have contacted a global tire company (after 20 years of winning for their competitors they were willing to listen) and I've already made a modest pre-arrangement with them. A couple of sets of tires for us doing a yearly blog on their website, etc. Also I've gotten a some local support to mount tires and alignments, etc.
I had assumed that Don would be interested. I honored what we had done previously by giving him "first dibs." Sadly he feels he needs to pass at this time, it's a very busy year. So I pose to you this question: do you know of any other ACR owners that might be interested? Making history awaits. Please advise, and don't hestiate to ask me any questions. Thanks.
I just thought somebody would want to be part of Making It Happen here in MN, once again. It's a rare opportunity. Please advise, at your convenience, and thank you, in any case.
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James111 stratus Posts: 109 Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted August 28th, 2009 06:37 PM IP  Wasn't Don's GTS a TT car? If so, I am not sure the cornering of the ACR would be able to keep up with a TT considering the long straight and other fast sections of the course.
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mbccenter SLACKER  Posts: 567 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 28th, 2009 09:22 PM IP  His car burned in Texas after RSI installed the TT. It was not at that time. 98 GTS orange/white. It is all "Stock"
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97 Gold Package 300C  Posts: 478 Registered: Jul 2007 |
Posted August 29th, 2009 08:41 AM IP  I believe the claim includes a stock brakes, suspension, and aerodynamics on street tires.
He should be able to do a 1:26.47 in the Gen 4 ACR.
I also would be honored and willing to try for the World Record of the United States of the Universe of America with any of your cars.
Call me a skeptic. This car would pull on whatever Don's car would do in 1997, which means not only would he have to make up time lost in the straight aways but knock off 3.5 seconds off the lap time in 10 turns. I can hear the tires sqealing in about half the turns which tells me "there is not that much left" in lowering the time.
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/...s-by_133757.htm
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully
in his sleep. Not screaming in panic like the passengers in his car!
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97 Gold Package 300C  Posts: 478 Registered: Jul 2007 |
Posted August 29th, 2009 08:49 AM IP 
Quote: mbccenter wrote:
His car burned in Texas after RSI installed the TT. It was not at that time.
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I think you should offer your orange car for a run.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully
in his sleep. Not screaming in panic like the passengers in his car!
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Back In Black 300CSRT8  Posts: 1211 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 29th, 2009 09:49 AM IP  1:46 in a bone stock GTS?? No way in hell. That's Porsche Cup Car territory.
I'd like to know what kind of timing method they used. Keith
'09 Graphite Coupe
Car Craft Magazine 2009 Real Street Eliminator Winner!
Wannabe Race Car Driver
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06red/whitecoupe VIPER  Posts: 1541 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 29th, 2009 11:21 AM IP  He claimed back in the summer of '03 that the car ran that fast...it was a hennesy car....but i dismissed it then and now to a faulty stop watch. In '03 at Viper days he wouldn't put the car on track. [transponders were being used and certainly would have timed it correctly]
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James111 stratus Posts: 109 Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted August 29th, 2009 05:49 PM IP  I have seen Kieth's vid before and that is why I was assuming it was the TT car. Would have been hard to beat Kieth's old car in a stock GTS.
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Whoaa GTS RAM  Posts: 659 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 02:08 PM IP  What kind of circle talk is this? If Don's car was a Hennessey car...which it was then it is not a stock GTS so therefore what difference does it make what the time was. So we have confirmed unofficially that Don's stock viper that was modded by Hennessey and thust not stock ran a 146 without the use of a transponder, but a faulty stop watch. What kind of tires was he on not that it even matters? I thought the whole purpose was stock car on stock tires brainerd lap record. I wouldnt bet against a ACR vs a TT car, acr would carry way more speed. 98 Red White GTS, winged, split, and geared!!!!
Faster than Funk
Coined the term"Uncle Mitchie"
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mbccenter SLACKER  Posts: 567 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 04:41 PM IP  We do not know if it was a Hennessey car at the time do we??? 98 GTS orange/white. It is all "Stock"
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john stratus  Posts: 116 Registered: Aug 2008 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 05:11 PM IP  I believe keith is there today. We will see how he does. I suppose that is the long course but the short course is a little slower (time wise) than the long according to BIR instructors. It is close though. 97 Viper GTS
93 Viper RT-10
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sir hiss Super Moderator  Posts: 2122 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 06:24 PM IP  I know Dr Ron is up there with Keith. The one and only JTBM
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may cause you to tell your friends over and over again that you love them.
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Back In Black 300CSRT8  Posts: 1211 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 10:25 PM IP 
Quote: john wrote:
I believe keith is there today. We will see how he does. I suppose that is the long course but the short course is a little slower (time wise) than the long according to BIR instructors. It is close though.
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Had a blast. Dr. Ron, Eric Carver (AtomicZ), and Tim Porter (Ford GT) were there as well. I had to leave early. First time I've ever been to an open track day and didn't get my fill.
This was my second time on the new course. First time was last September and it was raining. I made three laps. Spun twice and then they shut it down. I will never run in the rain again. What a total waste of tme.
Today was a different story. Weather was perfect. Hard to jump in the car and run after over a year without running a hot lap. Especially in a new car. Still managed to run a 1:47.7x and followed it up with a 1:47.4x. Lot's of traffic so it was hard to get many unimpeded laps in. Very pleased with the times though and great time. What a fun track!
Should be interesting to see what the car will do after I get the suspension sorted out!
(Edited by Back In Black) Keith
'09 Graphite Coupe
Car Craft Magazine 2009 Real Street Eliminator Winner!
Wannabe Race Car Driver
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James111 stratus Posts: 109 Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 10:41 PM IP  That time seems pretty quick for the short course. I thought the instructor told me the short course was slightly slower (higher time) than the long course due to the turns. Any videos?
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James111 stratus Posts: 109 Registered: Jun 2009 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 10:44 PM IP 
Quote: Whoaa GTS wrote:
What kind of circle talk is this? If Don's car was a Hennessey car...which it was then it is not a stock GTS so therefore what difference does it make what the time was. So we have confirmed unofficially that Don's stock viper that was modded by Hennessey and thust not stock ran a 146 without the use of a transponder, but a faulty stop watch. What kind of tires was he on not that it even matters? I thought the whole purpose was stock car on stock tires brainerd lap record. I wouldnt bet against a ACR vs a TT car, acr would carry way more speed.
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The top post says "street car/street tire" not "stock car/street tire".
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john stratus  Posts: 116 Registered: Aug 2008 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 10:51 PM IP 
Quote: Back In Black wrote:
Had a blast. Dr. Ron, Eric Carver (AtomicZ), and Tim Porter (Ford GT) were there as well. I had to leave early. First time I've ever been to an open track day and didn't get my fill.
This was my second time on the new course. First time was last September and it was raining. I made three laps. Spun twice and then they shut it down. I will never run in the rain again. What a total waste of tme.
Today was a different story. Weather was perfect. Hard to jump in the car and run after over a year without running a hot lap. Especially in a new car. Still managed to run a 147.7x and followed it up with a 147.4x. Lot's of traffic so it was hard to get many unimpeded laps in. Very pleased with the times though and great time. What a fun track!
Should be interesting to see what the car will do after I get the suspension sorted out!
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Great times. Get any good vids? 97 Viper GTS
93 Viper RT-10
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Back In Black 300CSRT8  Posts: 1211 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 11:09 PM IP 
Quote: James111 wrote:
The top post says "street car/street tire" not "stock car/street tire".
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Good point. So maybe it was a Hennessey car. You still need to go around corners and I have a hard time believing a street tired GTS ran that time. Who knows. Keith
'09 Graphite Coupe
Car Craft Magazine 2009 Real Street Eliminator Winner!
Wannabe Race Car Driver
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Back In Black 300CSRT8  Posts: 1211 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted August 31st, 2009 11:10 PM IP 
Quote: john wrote:
Great times. Get any good vids?
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I have video but I haven't viewed it yet. I'm pretty sure I have the 1:47's on video as well as datalogged. Keith
'09 Graphite Coupe
Car Craft Magazine 2009 Real Street Eliminator Winner!
Wannabe Race Car Driver
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Whoaa GTS RAM  Posts: 659 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 12:07 AM IP 
Quote: James111 wrote:
The top post says "street car/street tire" not "stock car/street tire".
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if that is so...then what constitutes a street car? I would love to see a bone stock acr with the tires from the factory go and set the stock production car record. 98 Red White GTS, winged, split, and geared!!!!
Faster than Funk
Coined the term"Uncle Mitchie"
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97 Gold Package 300C  Posts: 478 Registered: Jul 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 05:56 AM IP 
Quote: Back In Black wrote:
Had a blast. Dr. Ron, Eric Carver (AtomicZ), and Tim Porter (Ford GT) were there as well. I had to leave early. First time I've ever been to an open track day and didn't get my fill.
This was my second time on the new course. First time was last September and it was raining. I made three laps. Spun twice and then they shut it down. I will never run in the rain again. What a total waste of tme.
Today was a different story. Weather was perfect. Hard to jump in the car and run after over a year without running a hot lap. Especially in a new car. Still managed to run a 1:47.7x and followed it up with a 1:47.4x. Lot's of traffic so it was hard to get many unimpeded laps in. Very pleased with the times though and great time. What a fun track!
Should be interesting to see what the car will do after I get the suspension sorted out!
(Edited by Back In Black)
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The track was wide open between 3 and 5PM. I was off the track at 5 and when I left at 5:20 they were still letting cars on the track. My front tires are shredded, I need new tires. By the way I ran a 1:30.56 after everyone left; on a stop watch.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully
in his sleep. Not screaming in panic like the passengers in his car!
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97 Gold Package 300C  Posts: 478 Registered: Jul 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 08:49 AM IP  Everyone should have seen Keith's car.
Black rims, slicks, he also taped off the headlights and fog lights with black tape. Looked very sinister, not to mention he was flying around the track!
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully
in his sleep. Not screaming in panic like the passengers in his car!
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sir hiss Super Moderator  Posts: 2122 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 09:28 AM IP  "My front tires are shredded, I need new tires."
And people wonder how us "po folks" can afford to run these tracks? Let's see..................that's another $300-400 plus track fees? The one and only JTBM
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may cause you to tell your friends over and over again that you love them.
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97 Gold Package 300C  Posts: 478 Registered: Jul 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 10:14 AM IP 
Quote: sir hiss wrote:
"My front tires are shredded, I need new tires."
And people wonder how us "po folks" can afford to run these tracks? Let's see..................that's another $300-400 plus track fees?
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Isn't that about what you spend on panty hose and lipstick for yourself every month.
When I die, I want to die like my grandfather, who died peacefully
in his sleep. Not screaming in panic like the passengers in his car!
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Whoaa GTS RAM  Posts: 659 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 10:43 AM IP  What you think of the gen 4 compared to the black car keith? 98 Red White GTS, winged, split, and geared!!!!
Faster than Funk
Coined the term"Uncle Mitchie"
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sir hiss Super Moderator  Posts: 2122 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 11:51 AM IP 
Quote: 97 Gold Package wrote:
Isn't that about what you spend on panty hose and lipstick for yourself every month.
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Lets not confuse the issue since you gave me the money to shop for you.
You asked "me to get you" panty hose, a box of Depends and lip stick but you told me it was for Barb. (except for your box of Depends) Apparently you use the Depends to wipe down and wax your Chevy. The one and only JTBM
WARNING: The consumption of alcohol may cause you to tell your friends over and over again that you love them.
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SNKEBIT VIPER GOD  Posts: 2190 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 1st, 2009 12:04 PM IP 
Quote: sir hiss wrote:
Lets not confuse the issue since you gave me the money to shop for you.
You asked "me to get you" panty hose, a box of Depends and lip stick but you told me it was for Barb. (except for your box of Depends) Apparently you use the Depends to wipe down and wax your Chevy.
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Viper Doc Extraordinaire

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kjcracer Member Posts: 2 Registered: Sep 2009 |
Posted September 18th, 2009 07:11 AM IP  I suppose it's time to settle all this speculation about that lap back in '98? If so, please read on. That 1.46.67 time was done at the 1998 World Ruf Porsche event (I was an instructor who was also allowed to participate.) It was done on their very expensive, official timing equipment, not on any mere "stopwatch." Further, do you really think they wanted to give a laptime to us good enough to beat every car there except the two CTR-2 Sports on raceslicks? Besides the coverage in the Spring '99 issue of Viper Quarterly, you can read about this event from other participant's webpages...such as nsxfiles.com.
As for the state of tune of Don's '97 GTS on that day? Remember it was only one year old then. Stock brakes, stock suspension, period. 11's and 13's (instead of 10's and 13's) for wheels, with 315/335 17" BFG tires. Those bigger front tires really helped the front grip. Don had the higher-ratio rocker arms to boost the 415 hp up some, and a different ecu. It had no where near the hp of a current Viper. (Later he did more evolutions of modifications to that car, with a sad ending in Texas...I never drove it again.)
Over my 20 years in motorsports, I have gotten used to the skeptics saying that things outside their experience aren't possible. Need more? How about another similar example? Another car I like is the Porsche 928. (Same weight as a Viper but with smaller tires and with only about 65% of the hp.) If you go through the Porsche Club records? You will find that the laptimes with that car are consistently in the 2:00-2:05 range at BIR. Except this one guy, yours truly, back in the 90's, did 1:54's and 1:53's every year for the whole decade. 6-7 seconds a lap faster than any other driver with this car, for years on end...even to this day. A gap that large for 20 years straight, not possible? Go check into it.
What people haven't said, maybe don't know, about me? That over those years, I drove for five global tires companies (Bridgestone, Yokohama, Michelin, Toyo and Pirelli) through hundreds of events. The results? 58 Championships. When you have this for an avocation, not just a hobby, and do it all the time.... isn't this more of the kind of performance that you'd expect? If you want many more examples of "no way" lap time/record stuff we've already done, all over the USA, just ask away!
If you've read the new R&T you are likely aware they're going after the Nurburgring record with a new ZR-1. Time for us to move our own record down here at BIR, and carry the spear with an ACR!?! The aerodynamics of the ACR, with the 1000 pounds of downforce at 150 mph, that will gain a lot of lap time in Turns 1&2 in particular. The brakes and suspension are far better than what we had back in '98...and more hp too.
Also, I've pre-lined up a little support from a (sixth) global tire company for the effort. So? Who wants to go make history, again? As usual, I'll let the results do the talking, it will be another day to confound the skeptics....I'm used to it. Thanks for listening. KJC :)
KJC
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06red/whitecoupe VIPER  Posts: 1541 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 18th, 2009 07:58 AM IP  with all due respect, if you are saying that you ran a 1:46 with a 97 GTS ....stock brakes, stock suspension, and essentially a stock engine, your claim is simply impossible; as for your 58 championships, you would have to list those as I do follow most all the road racing events sanctioned by SCCA, IMSA, etc including SCCA regional and national events and have for over 30 years and I have never heard of you.
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Back In Black 300CSRT8  Posts: 1211 Registered: Jan 2007 |
Posted September 18th, 2009 09:36 AM IP 
Quote: kjcracer wrote:
I suppose it's time to settle all this speculation about that lap back in '98? If so, please read on. That 1.46.67 time was done at the 1998 World Ruf Porsche event (I was an instructor who was also allowed to participate.) It was done on their very expensive, official timing equipment, not on any mere "stopwatch." Further, do you really think they wanted to give a laptime to us good enough to beat every car there except the two CTR-2 Sports on raceslicks? Besides the coverage in the Spring '99 issue of Viper Quarterly, you can read about this event from other participant's webpages...such as nsxfiles.com.
As for the state of tune of Don's '97 GTS on that day? Remember it was only one year old then. Stock brakes, stock suspension, period. 11's and 13's (instead of 10's and 13's) for wheels, with 315/335 17" BFG tires. Those bigger front tires really helped the front grip. Don had the higher-ratio rocker arms to boost the 415 hp up some, and a different ecu. It had no where near the hp of a current Viper. (Later he did more evolutions of modifications to that car, with a sad ending in Texas...I never drove it again.)
Over my 20 years in motorsports, I have gotten used to the skeptics saying that things outside their experience aren't possible. Need more? How about another similar example? Another car I like is the Porsche 928. (Same weight as a Viper but with smaller tires and with only about 65% of the hp.) If you go through the Porsche Club records? You will find that the laptimes with that car are consistently in the 2:00-2:05 range at BIR. Except this one guy, yours truly, back in the 90's, did 1:54's and 1:53's every year for the whole decade. 6-7 seconds a lap faster than any other driver with this car, for years on end...even to this day. A gap that large for 20 years straight, not possible? Go check into it.
What people haven't said, maybe don't know, about me? That over those years, I drove for five global tires companies (Bridgestone, Yokohama, Michelin, Toyo and Pirelli) through hundreds of events. The results? 58 Championships. When you have this for an avocation, not just a hobby, and do it all the time.... isn't this more of the kind of performance that you'd expect? If you want many more examples of "no way" lap time/record stuff we've already done, all over the USA, just ask away!
If you've read the new R&T you are likely aware they're going after the Nurburgring record with a new ZR-1. Time for us to move our own record down here at BIR, and carry the spear with an ACR!?! The aerodynamics of the ACR, with the 1000 pounds of downforce at 150 mph, that will gain a lot of lap time in Turns 1&2 in particular. The brakes and suspension are far better than what we had back in '98...and more hp too.
Also, I've pre-lined up a little support from a (sixth) global tire company for the effort. So? Who wants to go make history, again? As usual, I'll let the results do the talking, it will be another day to confound the skeptics....I'm used to it. Thanks for listening. KJC :)
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http://www.928s4vr.com/kim_c.htm
FYI, a '97 GTS was 450 hp not 415.
I don't care if Michael Schumacher came on here and said he ran a 1:46 in a "street tired" GTS, I still would be very skeptical. What were these "street" tires anyway? Quasi legal DOT road race tires or REAL street radials? You said they were BFG's so they were not the factory installed Michelins. What about the alignment? Factory or tuned for the track? Did you take out the sport shims?
Stock brakes?? Again, can you clarify? Stock calipers with Hawk pads or 100% factory installed brake components??
What were your cornering speeds through turn 1 and 2?
I just dug out that Spring 1999 issue and re-read the story. Don's car had the Hennessey Venom 550 upgrades first of all. That includes at the very minimum, headers and exhaust. It should have been making in the neighborhood of 500rwhp. With a good exit out of turn 10, that power should be enough for the claimed 162mph at the end of the straight. Gen4's pull around 540hp at the wheels stock. So, a 40 rwhp difference is a bit closer than "nowhere near".
Would really like to know about these "street tires".


(Edited by Back In Black) Keith
'09 Graphite Coupe
Car Craft Magazine 2009 Real Street Eliminator Winner!
Wannabe Race Car Driver
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kjcracer Member Posts: 2 Registered: Sep 2009 |
Posted September 18th, 2009 10:53 AM IP  At least people are engaged on the topic? I'll throw in another example for you? If you don't want to hear about it, please just skip to another topic.
How about the day, at the (asphalt) Virginia City Hill Climb (in Nevada) when somebody with a four door air-conditioned, automatic transmission Mercedes beat every car there: Ferrari, Viper, Corvette, Porsche, etc. First time at the event, a 5.2 mile course. I bet skeptics would say there is a "no way," a Mercedes...least of all in the mid-90's could do that. Yes, in the 20 years of this event, a Mercedes had never even placed "high" in the results before, much less won Overall. It's never happened since. The car belonged to RENNTech Mercedes, I was the driver. You can look that one up on the Microsoft guys website, nsxfiles.com, too. (1996 Virginia City Hill Climb.) There is a long list of these kinds of results and records, for the skeptics. As for doing bigger and flashier events along the way, like IMSA? Would love to! But the sponsors have always wanted something more cost-effective. I am not independently wealthy, so I do the work that's available... isn't that what professionals do all across our great land? Getting great results is too, anybody interested? Thanks. KJC
Viper Club member 25208 KJC
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Viper Club of America Minnesota Chapter :: Public Discussions :: Public Discussion :: GEN 4 ACR NEEDED Page: 1 2 |
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